Interview with Stephen M.R. Covey

May 8, 2020

In this 15-minute interview with Stephen M.R. Covey, we discuss how trust within organizations may be impacted by the COVID-19 situation.

Stephen posits that there may be an “amplification” effect where if trust within an organization was strong before the quarantine, it will likely emerge as strong or stronger after people return to work.

Conversely, if trust was weak before the hiatus, it will likely become weaker while people are out and when they return to work once it is safe to do so.

The good news is that if leaders do a good job of communicating well and often, it can actually help repair weak trust. He urges leaders to be authentic and talk straight. Create a safe environment for people.

His strong advice for leaders is that “you cannot talk your way out of a problem you behaved your way into.” He suggests that during the hiatus, leaders need to intentionally extend trust.

Check out this interview and let me know if you agree with his ideas. Here is the link.

Body Language 36 Crossing Ankles

July 13, 2019

When young girls are posing for a class picture, they are taught that the proper sitting position is with ankles crossed and hands folded in their laps. Boys are taught to put both feet on the floor.

According to “Miss Manners,” as a cultural preference in the US, crossing ankles is the proper position for a seated woman. You rarely see that gesture actually used in a business setting.

Most women sit with their legs crossed where one leg is on top of the opposite knee. Men cross their legs by putting the ankle of one leg on the knee of the opposite leg in a “figure 4” position.

When a person crosses his or her ankles in a professional setting, it can be an indication of holding something back. The implication is the same whether the person is standing or sitting.

You can observe this gesture in many different contexts, but the underlying meaning is normally uncertainty. Here are some situations where you might see a person with crossed ankles. Later in this article I will share some tips on how to get people to uncross their ankles.

In job interviews

This situation is normally an uncomfortable time for all people. Even folks who are highly confident in their abilities will feel a bit ill at ease, because there is a lot at stake in an interview. Most often the person is sitting across a table or desk from the person conducting the interview.

It is too casual to sit with legs crossed in the normal manner during an interview, but sitting with both feet on the floor has a rigidity that many people want to avoid. Given these two extremes, it is common to see a person sitting with ankles crossed in a job interview.

In court or in a legal proceeding

These situations also are packed with tension for most people. Trying to find a comfortable sitting position when you are on the witness stand is a daunting task. Just recognize that the opposing lawyer is observing your body language in microscopic detail. If you cross your ankles, you can expect the cross examination to probe deeply to find out what you might be hiding or holding back.

At the doctor’s office

In this case, you want to picture the doctor as your friend and ally, yet there can be a lot of discomfort involved, especially if you are not telling the absolute truth about your personal habits. The doctor will pick up on your level of nervousness and make some judgments about how candid you are being. That may affect the level of trust you are able to achieve with your physician. If you have never been uncomfortable in the doctor’s office, I suspect you are an unusual case.

Buying a car or other major investment

In this case there is an assumed adversarial relationship between you and the sales person. You recognize that the sales person does this kind of negotiation every day, so this person is assumed to have a big advantage over the insecure person sitting across the table who buys a car only about once a decade. Your anxiety will often show by the way you are sitting.

Disciplining another person

Whether it is a disrespectful youth or a worker who has done something wrong, you will find yourself in a position of authority having to admonish another person from time to time. Recognizing there are right and wrong ways to have these crucial conversations, it is common for both parties in the discussion to be a bit nervous.

Working in a high stress environment

Telemarketers will often sit with ankles crossed as they try to make their points to a person on the line who often just wants the conversation to end. In addition, customer service people will sit that way as they try to resolve an issue for a person if they find it difficult to understand the customer’s problem. They want to help but realize that sometimes that is difficult to do.

How can you get a person who is sitting with ankles crossed to relax and uncross them? The methods to do this are highly cultural specific, but there are some general ideas that often can work. The first hint is to modulate your voice to be soothing and helpful. Use the “golden rule” and address the other person in a way that you would like to be addressed if the roles were reversed.

If you are sitting across a table or desk, you might move to another chair on the same side of the table as the other person, but only if the conversation is friendly and informal, otherwise it might be interpreted as an aggressive move. Also, if you hand something to the person, it causes him or her to move the upper body, which may cause the person to resettle the lower extremities.

If the person is crossing her ankles because that is how she was taught to sit in formal situations, these fixes may not work well, so don’t belabor them.

Be more alert to how people sit and you can often pick up signs of a person who is holding back. Knowing there may be an issue will allow you to ask some clarifying questions and perhaps clear the air.

This is a part in a series of articles on “Body Language.” The entire series can be viewed on or on this blog.

Bob Whipple, MBA, CPLP, is a consultant, trainer, speaker, and author in the areas of leadership and trust. He is the author of four books: 1.TheTrust Factor: Advanced Leadership for Professionals (2003), 2. Understanding E-Body Language: Building Trust Online (2006), 3. Leading with Trust is Like Sailing Downwind (2009), and 4. Trust in Transition: Navigating Organizational Change (2014). In addition, he has authored over 600 articles and videos on various topics in leadership and trust. Bob has many years as a senior executive with a Fortune 500 Company and with non-profit organizations.

Alliance of Trustworthy Business Experts (ATBE)

January 31, 2013

PrintThere is a new entity in the trust business that has been organized by the Trust Across America Group. It is a consortium of individuals and groups that are all interested in raising the level of trust in organizations.

Our goal is to make a substantial improvement in trust in US companies over the next two years.

As a Founding Member of the group, I will be included as an author in a book that is being written to commemorate the first year of this organization.

Here is a link to an interview I recently did for the Alliance

Trust Insights

July 16, 2010

This BLOG entry is a little different from my usual pattern. I normally write an article about some topic that I am passionate about or interview someone else on his or her theories of leadership. This week I am letting someone interview me.

The following exchange was between a graduate student and myself in a class on Transformational Leadership. I thought her questions were excellent and wanted to provide my responses as a means to prime some further discussions in this forum. She wrote four questions about the nature of trust in organizations.

Student: Can the issue of trust be instinctive or factual or it is really a balance of both?

Trust Ambassador: I believe trust is a kind of reciprocal phenomenon. I trust you and you trust me to some degree. The level of trust in one direction is never exactly the same as in reverse, but everything that happens between the individuals causes either a deposit or withdrawal in the trust account (large or small depending on the situation). Trust never stands still – it is transactional in nature, and the transactions are going on thousands of times a day. Body language is a huge part of the equation that most people take for granted. Also, keep in mind that in online communication there is a kind of body language going on that most people are oblivious to. I find it fascinating. The most important information in an e-mail is actually between the lines.

Student: Does one bad apple really spoil the whole bunch?

Trust Ambassador: No, the bunch can work around a bad apple situation and coexist for a long time just fine. That said, a bad apple can be a kind of cancer that secretly undermines trust within a group, and it grows undetected for a long time before being discovered. I have a whole set of technology on how to deal with a bad apple. One caveat: If the bad apple is the leader, then you have a crisis. People cannot work around it effectively because the leader can muck up any attempt to build trust within the organization.

Student: Can we not cut out the bad part and salvage the rest?

Trust Ambassador: Yes – we can cut out and discard the cancer like a tumor. However, brilliant leadership actually converts some of the bad apples into the most vocal proponents of the forces for good in an organization. That is huge progress, and it is quite possible to accomplish.

Student: Can you trust in part and not whole and if so is that real trust?

Trust Ambassador: Yes! Trust is never absolute. There are qualifiers, and trust has numerous compartments that are working simultaneously. It is the sum total of all elements at a particular point in time that determines the balance in the trust account. It does not need to be the same in both directions. For example, I may trust you at 92% out of 100 at the moment, and you trust me only at 79%. Happens all the time.